The New York Times’ Maggie Haberman has described in detail the power that she says White House deputy chief of staff for policy Stephen Miller wields in Donald Trump’s administration, and how he and his wife, MAGA podcaster Katie Miller, have become figures that people are afraid to cross.

Appearing on an episode of Legal AF’s “The Court of History” podcast, Haberman described Stephen Miller, the architect of Trump’s hard-line immigration agenda, as “arguably the most powerful” West Wing staffer “in decades.”

Miller is “extremely adept at presenting himself as the president’s voice in meetings” and “essentially presents himself as the last word and says this is what the president wants,” said the co-author of the new Trump tell-all “Regime Change.”

The Millers have “made themselves a power center of their own who people are incredibly afraid to cross,” she continued.

Watch from the 5-minute mark here:

Top Trump officials, including Secretary of State Marco Rubio, FBI Director Kash Patel and Attorney General Todd Blanche, have “had to understand that Stephen Miller was someone they had to work with or at least fear crossing,” Haberman said.

“This is very, very real,” she added. “These are people who believe to one degree or another they have to answer to Stephen.”

Some officials “are afraid” of Katie Miller “if they’re being honest,” Haberman claimed.

Miller’s podcast features a “rotating series of appearances from senior-level White House officials” but does not have “a huge listener base,” she noted. “So people can make of that what they will.”

“But they have an enormous amount of power, and it … does radiate outside the government,” Haberman added.